Who will be harmed if we end the patriarchy?

Author	Comment
renatejns		#61	[-]
Molting chick Posts: 337 (07/16/08 3:12 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I don't see how anybody gets harmed by ending patriarchy. Saying that it harms men is about like saying thieves are harmed by laws against robbery. They shouldn't be taking stuff that doesn't belong to them in the first place. On the prostitution thing, I don't think it's as simple as willing buyer, willing seller. For one thing, the buyer and the seller don't have equal standing in that kind of market. For another, patriarchy is a set of power relationships that colors just about everything. Nobody asks a powerful person if you can buy sex from them. There's only an expectation that people without power will have sex with random people for money. Maybe it would be different in some Utopian world where everyone was truly equal and sex wasn't laden with so many complex elements of status, danger, shame, compulsion, vulnerability and other aspects of hierarchy. But that's not the way it is under patriarchy.
easstcoast		#62	[-]
Tell Tishie your custom level! Posts: 1670 (07/16/08 4:41 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	renatejns wrote: Nobody asks a powerful person if you can buy sex from them. There's only an expectation that people without power will have sex with random people for money. Good point. Maybe it would be different in some Utopian world where everyone was truly equal and sex wasn't laden with so many complex elements of status, danger, shame, compulsion, vulnerability and other aspects of hierarchy. I've always believed it was the egg-to-sperm ratio coupled with the physiological nature of the sex act itself that really helps create the differential. As men aren't the ones that get pregnant they don't have the same set of psycho-sexual inhibitors as women. No real evolutionary need for them to be all that discriminating (some might argue just the opposite in fact). Nature seems to lay that burden off on culture to ameliorate the imbalance.
Tishie		#63	[-]
Posts: 2205 (07/16/08 4:55 PM) The Tishie Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Actually, if we're going all evo-psych, it's just as advantageous for women to sleep around as it is for men, if they're going to get pregnant anyway. I don't think the power in the sex business is due to sperm and who gets pregnant. It's due to centuries of women being oppressed and treated as property. It takes a hell of a lot more than a couple of generations to change that.
bleustocking		#64	[-]
Feathery chick Posts: 311 (07/16/08 5:02 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	renatejns wrote: Saying that it [ending patriarchy] harms men is about like saying thieves are harmed by laws against robbery. They shouldn't be taking stuff that doesn't belong to them in the first place. [edit] Nobody asks a powerful person if you can buy sex from them. Hammer. Nail. Bang.
easstcoast		#65	[-]
Tell Tishie your custom level! Posts: 1673 (07/16/08 5:25 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tishie wrote: Actually, if we're going all evo-psych, it's just as advantageous for women to sleep around as it is for men, if they're going to get pregnant anyway. I disagree. I think women are more predisposed to gravitate towards quality rather than quantity.
Tishie		#66	[-]
Posts: 2213 (07/16/08 6:21 PM) The Tishie Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	That's the beauty of evo-psych. It's all made up and untestable. So, we can disagree, and we're both right or wrong or whatever, but we'll never really know. I say women are better off having a backup plan, to ensure that she and her children are protected by all of the men in the cave village or whatever we're saying "natural" humans did, and that quality and quantity are not mutually exclusive. So there!
ms chinook		#67	[-]
Chickenier than thou Posts: 1206 (07/17/08 9:54 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	What makes for quality? A friend of mine was a PhD student involved in a study that found that woman prefer different facial features at different times in their cycles - leaning to very stereotypically strong-macho faces when ovulating and more gentle/less masculine faces when not. So sleeping around may well be as programmed into women, just in a more cyclical way. I believe there was a related study done about how women are more likely to cheat during ovulation. All very interesting, I guess, but hardly relevant to what we choose to actually do with life. ***************** Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to always be one of the crowd. Christopher Morley www.life-suitcase.blogspot.com
Tishie		#68	[-]
Posts: 2218 (07/17/08 10:21 PM) The Tishie Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Evolutionarily speaking, quality means women like dudes with Jaguars. Sheesh, don't you even read? Of course not, because evolutionarily you are just busy trying to find a dude to protect you and your offspring, and you want lots of offspring, right? Of course you do!!!!!! So of course women are more likely to cheat during ovulation - see? If the point is to make babies to carry on your genes, you're probably not going to do best by sticking with one dude. His sperm might not even work! And the best "protector" might not have the best genes. Bleh. There is no way to experimentally test whether we have evolved to have certain behavior. And also, describing behavior in terms of evolution is usually stupid, and often dangerous, IMO. Too often it is used to defend sexism, racism, homophobia, etc etc etc.
Rajsh		#69	[-]
Big clucker Posts: 556 (07/18/08 5:42 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	No doubt. Though in the case of cheating more while ovulating, I would take a modified evolutionary tack and say it's because women are hornier then. I don't think we can doubt that on the average, our bodies generally spend a good bit of energy trying to get us to reproduce, whether we want to or not. And by "our" I mean every living species But not every individual... such a crucial distinction and one that we seem to have evolved to be too stupid to make But anyhow, my personal POV aside, because I certainly won't defend it to the death or anything, I have yet to see one of these studies without a ton of cultural overlays. Such as, what makes a face more strong or gentle? I remember one study that noted Americans tend to prefer people with deeper voices -- male and females with lower than average voices were found sexier. The conclusion was something about testosterone increasing sex drive and possibly being linked to deeper voices -- and out of all that concluding, every bit of it was scientifically suspect. Not to mention that this only applied to a group of people with a common culture, and I haven't the slightest idea whether it would hold in other countries, other languages, etc. * * * * * gonna die with the hammer in my hand, lord lord gonna die with the hammer in my hand
Rajsh		#70	[-]
Big clucker Posts: 557 (07/18/08 5:45 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Wait, I've changed my mind, I think we all evolved to think women with grey eyes, muddy blonde hair, and bad attitudes are incredibly sexy. You can't help it. Biology is destiny. You must worship me, I mean, them. * * * * * gonna die with the hammer in my hand, lord lord gonna die with the hammer in my hand
StillRobinGraves		#71	[-]
Tough chick Posts: 550 (07/18/08 12:56 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	swoons at Rajsh's feet ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "To resist despair in this world is what it is to be free." -Operation Ivy
JG	Too funny	#72	[-]
Egg Posts: 2 (08/01/08 8:49 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	This is ridiculous. There are plenty of sit-at-homes here (or near sit-at-homes with easy, low-earning jobs). You know what would happen if sex roles weren't forced on your husbands: You'd have to get off your fat ass and work. You probably also know deep down inside that you don't want that. So what are you yapping about here? You get a free ride because of the "Patriarchy" - men still have their traditional roles forced on them - and you don't have any corresponding obligations anymore. You can work for your own pin money (while hubby pays the rent or mortgage) or you can sit on your butt at home or you can delve into a career - with "Plan B", the escape hatch plan of hubby supporting you, available if you fail.
GenXer13		#73	[-]
Chickenier than thou Posts: 1039 (08/01/08 9:14 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Or maybe we'd work if we didn't get laid off. <Resumes bon bon eating >
windy		#74	[-]
Chickenier than thou Posts: 917 (08/01/08 9:21 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Who says "pin money"? I mean, my grandmother, but she's not an internet troll. I don't think. Rocking the plastic like a man from the Catskills.
Singing Dog		#75	[-]
Posts: 1908 (08/01/08 9:24 AM) The Minister of Irrelevant Information Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Can I smake the troll pleaaaaase? I've had a really rough week and he's just begging for some aggression.
bread and roses		#76	[-]
Tough chick Posts: 586 (08/01/08 9:27 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Go for it, SD. gets popcorn * * * Kid #1: Paper beats rock. BAM! Your rock is blowed up! Kid #2: "Bam" doesn't blow up, "bam" makes it spicy. Now I got a SPICY ROCK! You can't defeat that! - Overheard in New York
easstcoast		#77	[-]
Tell Tishie your custom level! Posts: 1706 (08/01/08 9:29 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	SD, giving trolls attention is like manna from heaven for them. Just ignore him and he'll crawl back under his rock (aka his bedroom in his mom's house)
Singing Dog		#78	[-]
Posts: 1910 (08/01/08 9:41 AM) The Minister of Irrelevant Information Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'm way too burnt out this week to get creative. I just want to chase him around like a mouse or something.
Tishie		#79	[-]
Posts: 2236 (08/01/08 3:27 PM) The Tishie Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Silly woman. If he were a mouse, you'd be on top of a chair or table in your high heels, screeching for your husband to kill it.
Singing Dog		#80	[-]
Posts: 1911 (08/01/08 3:55 PM) The Minister of Irrelevant Information Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	No no no, remember the screen name? Coyotes gobble up mice like hors d'oeurves!

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